Chris Cate: Welcome to the Fluent in Floridian podcast, featuring the sunshine state's brightest leaders talking about the issues most important to the people of Florida and its millions of weekly visitors. In this episode created by Salter Mitchell PR, our executive producer Heidi Otway, the president of Salter Mitchell PR, talks to Ashley Thomas, the Florida state director for the Fines and Fees Justice Center.

Heidi Otway: So, Ashley. Thank you so much for being with here today on this episode of the Fluent in Floridian podcast.

Ashley Thomas: Thank you for having me. I am so happy to be here.

Heidi Otway: So you're new to the sunshine state.

Ashley Thomas: I am.

Heidi Otway: So, can you tell our listeners what brought you here to Florida?

Ashley Thomas: Love brought me here to Florida.

Heidi Otway: Oh.

Ashley Thomas: I met my partner Michael and we were long-distance for three and a half years. I was living in South Carolina, he was here, he has kids from a previous marriage, so he couldn't leave. So we just did the long-distance thing for far too long. But I really was enjoying my work in South Carolina, and we traveled basically every weekend, put on a lot of miles. It was about a four hour drive that we took every weekend, and then eventually I was like "This is not sustainable." It probably was not as sustainable as it was for as long as it was, but we made it work, and it was good; but it's even better now that we're together.

Heidi Otway: Good, good.

Ashley Thomas: Now I have two kids in my life, too. So that's exciting.

Heidi Otway: Wonderful. Okay, so you came to Florida about a year and a half ago, and to let everyone know, so you are now the Florida director of the Fines and Fees Justice Center.

Ashley Thomas: Yes.

Heidi Otway: So tell us about that role.

Ashley Thomas: Yeah, so, interestingly, I moved to Florida without a job, and without really knowing what I was going to do here. And the Fines and Fees Justice Center is a relatively new organization, and they had a job posting for work on fines and fees in the justice system, and it was very similar, in some ways, to the work I was doing in South Carolina. I was like "This is just too weird, that it's that closely aligned with the work I'd been doing."

Because I didn't think I was ever going to find... Because part of the reason I never left South Carolina is because the work I was doing there, and I was like "I'm not going to be able to find this somewhere else," and then moved here, and saw the job posting, and got the job, luckily.

Ashley Thomas: The Fines and Fees Justice Center is a relatively new organization. It's a national organization with two state campaigns currently. One of them's in Florida, which I lead, and then there's another in New York. And we're working to address how fines and fees are used in the justice system, and eliminate fees, and make sure that the fines that are imposed on people are equitable, and they take somebody's personal circumstance into account, and they take the crime into account, and all of the factors which currently in many states, it's not taken into consideration.

Heidi Otway: So for some of our listeners who are here and they are not familiar with the term "fines and fees," how would you define that?

Ashley Thomas: There are three types of financial obligations that might come out of a criminal justice involvement.

One of them is restitution, which is if you have a victim, if you damage somebody's car, it's repaying the victim for the amount that they are, essentially, out, because of your actions. So, there's restitution, and honestly, our work does not touch on restitution, because that's making a victim whole.

Fees are sort of administrative fees. They are used to fund different government services. In Florida, they fund the clerks, they fund various trust funds, they fund law libraries, they fund all kinds of different government activities.

And then a fine is sort of the penalty portion of criminal conviction or traffic conviction. It's meant to be a deterrent and many of the fines are mandatory here in Florida.

Heidi Otway: Yeah. So how could someone be assessed a fine or fee? Specifically in Florida.

Ashley Thomas: So, in the criminal context, everybody walks away from a conviction with fees.

Heidi Otway: Oh.

‍Ashley Thomas: They are imposed by statute, they're mandatory. If you are convicted, then there are hundreds of dollars worth of fees that will be imposed as part of your case. Many of us have received a traffic ticket of some sort. A speeding ticket or red light ticket or even a toll violation. And the punishment piece of that is you're not going to send everybody to jail for that, right?

Heidi Otway: Yes. We'd have a lot of people in jail.

Ashley Thomas: Exactly.

Heidi Otway: More than what we have now.

Ashley Thomas: And so, the fine is used to be the punishment for breaking the law, but it's not criminal. It's just a civil violation. So, there's a fine there, but there's also fees. Administrative fees, processing fees, clerk fees, so on and so forth. So, there's both fines and fees in the traffic. And in criminal, there's not always a fine, but there's always a fee.

Heidi Otway: If a person doesn't pay their fines and fees in Florida, what's the consequences there?

Ashley Thomas: There are a number of consequences that could come about if a person is unable to pay within a certain period of time, then one thing that could happen is a collections agency takes the case, and they then impose an additional fee of up to 40% of whatever the underlying fine or fee is to try to collect. Just like anybody who gets behind on a credit card payment.

Heidi Otway: A credit card payment or something like that.

Ashley Thomas: You don't pay it and then it goes to a collections agency.

Heidi Otway: Right okay. So the same thing happens in the court system with fines and fees?

Ashley Thomas: It does. Sometimes the fines and fees are converted to civil judgements so they could be levied against property, things like that. And then probably the harshest and the most impactful here in Florida is that we suspend people's drivers license if they get behind on their fines and fees, even if the underlying fines had absolutely nothing to do with driving.

Heidi Otway: Really?

Ashley Thomas: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Heidi Otway: So examples of that would be...?

Ashley Thomas: Any criminal case. If you had burglary of a empty shed or something like that. You're convicted, you have a sentence that have to serve: probation, or time in jail or prison. But then there's all these fees. Hundreds and hundreds of dollars, sometimes thousands of dollars, in fees and fines. So then you don't pay it within the 30 days that you have to pay it or to be put on a payment plan, and you are then facing having your driver's license suspended, which makes it really hard to pay those fines and fees, because you're not able to get to work.

Heidi Otway: Right. If you work. Right.

Ashley Thomas: If you work, or if you're sentenced to a period of time in prison, then you're coming out of prison with your license suspended, and it's very hard to do much of anything. I mean, getting a house, many landlords request, you know, "May I have a picture of your driver's license?"

Heidi Otway: Yeah. Right, right.

And even to get a job in Florida, it's required for you to have a driver's license, so if we're talking about individuals who are trying to become gainfully employed...

Ashley Thomas: Right.

Heidi Otway: And their driver's license is suspended, they're chances are slim to none, then, of getting a job.

‍Ashley Thomas: Right, and there are plenty of studies that show one of the primary indicators of recidivism, whether somebody will re-offend, is if they have stable housing, and if they have a stable job.

Heidi Otway: And I'm sure there's probably some studies on their ability to drive. The impact of not being able to drive, and how that impacts their lifestyles across the board.

Ashley Thomas: Right. I mean, people drive for so many reasons. Just recently, I had a tree fall on my car. [inaudible 00:07:45] tree fell on my car.

Heidi Otway: Welcome to Florida.

Ashley Thomas: Right. There wasn't even a storm.

Heidi Otway: There wasn't even a storm?

Ashley Thomas: Nothing. Three o'clock in the morning, tree just comes down, wake up like "What just happened?" So, I was without a car for a month.

Heidi Otway: Wow.

Ashley Thomas: Which was very eye-opening about how we take it for granted, so many of us take it for granted, and when you don't have a car, it's really, really inconvenient. You have to rely on somebody to take you somewhere. I rode my bike to my doctor's appointment. Which, luckily I could do that. I'm able-bodied, my doctor was nearby, but I challenge anyone to go a week without a car and see what's it like. Or even a day or two without a car.

Heidi Otway: Yeah. Isn't there a stat that, what, 90% of Floridians drive?

Ashley Thomas: Drive to get to work.

Heidi Otway: Drive to get to work.

Ashley Thomas: Yup. I mean, Florida is a large state. The metropolitan areas are really spread out, and we don't have an extensive public transportation system. There's another statistic that says, on average, to take public transportation [inaudible 00:08:48], it would be a 90 minute one-way commute.

Heidi Otway: Yeah, I'm from Miami, and when I was a little kid I would catch the bus to downtown Miami to go to the main library down there, because they had all the best books, and I'm like 12 years old, and I'm jumping on a bus, and it took me a long time to get there, and it was safe and everything, but it was... I mean, I was a kid. Imagine if I had to go to work, and be there at 7 AM in the morning, and have to catch multiple buses in the Metro Rail to get there. That's a challenge.

Ashley Thomas: And then if you have kids and-

Heidi Otway: Right. And I had to take them to school.

‍Ashley Thomas: You have to make sure- right.

Heidi Otway: Or doctor's appointments.

Ashley Thomas: We've heard from parents who are packing up their kids at 5 o'clock in the morning just to start the process of-

Heidi Otway: And these are parents who've lost their driver's license because they couldn't pay their fines and fees.

Ashley Thomas: Right.

Heidi Otway: So tell me a little bit about where the Fines and Fees Justice Center comes in with the reforms around fines and fees in Florida specifically? What are you all doing right now?

Ashley Thomas: So, our primary focus in the near term is working on the driver's license suspension issue. It's gotten a lot of movement nationally as something that's counter-productive process that's not working, and other states have realized it's not working for their communities and for their employers, and for their families, and Florida is ripe for reform. We're sending out over a million suspension notices in 2017, 2018, simply because people have not paid their fines or fees. That is a huge, huge percentage or drivers and the impact that it has on the state. I think all of our goals should be making sure that folks can get to work and support themselves, and be self-sufficient, and be able to be reliable employees, showing up on time, and we're really making it hard for people. Got to ask yourself "What is the end goal ultimately? Is it just to punish people because they're poor or they seem to be?" You know, there's this assumption that people who don't pay their fines or fees are just scofflaws, is the word that I've heard.

Heidi Otway: Oh, really?

Ashley Thomas: I hate that word. I hate that word. But I worked with communities, and low-income folks for the majority of my career, and poverty is a complex, complex topic, and even in Florida, the number of families that are living paycheck to paycheck. If suddenly you have an extra $100, $200, $300, $1000 expense? It's not that we're saying "You're not responsible for what you've done." You are responsible, but it doesn't make sense to take away the primary tool they have to get out from underneath that debt, to pay that debt.

Heidi Otway: And that's their driver's license to get around, get to work.

Ashley Thomas: That their driver's license. Right.

Heidi Otway: And make a living.

Ashley Thomas: Right.

Heidi Otway: Earlier you say that this is not working. This fines and fees approach with the suspended driver's license, and other states are changing. What does it mean, "It's not working"?

Ashley Thomas: So there's this idea that if somebody owes money, then you take something that's really important to them, and you threaten to take it away if they don't pay it. And that's going to make them pay. That's not what happens, because the reason they're not paying is because they can't afford the payment, or they're having a bad month, or they've got doctor's bills, or any number of things are happening in their lives.

And so, you can threaten to take away everything that is near and dear to them, but if they don't have money, they're not going to be able to suddenly produce it out of thin air. If it was working, you would think "Oh, nobody would have a suspended license, because it was such a great tool..."

Heidi Otway: Yeah. People would actually...

Ashley Thomas: People would, you know...

Heidi Otway: Pay?

Ashley Thomas: Pay, and nobody would have a suspended license, but that's not what's happening. Hundreds of thousands of people every year end up with a suspended driver's license, and the vast majority of them stay suspended for years.

Heidi Otway: And it's because?

Ashley Thomas: Because the costs are so high.

Heidi Otway: What's an example of a cost? Let's say it's a toll violation. You didn't pay a toll on the turnpike for whatever reason. What would that number look like?

Ashley Thomas: Well, I can tell you a story about this, actually.

There was a young college student that went across a bridge three times. $2 toll each time. She had sun pass, but the credit card attached to her sun pass had expired. She didn't realize it. College, things happen. She was not living at home where the notice went to, but she was in college.

Heidi Otway: She was in college. Right, right.

Ashley Thomas: She didn't get the notice, her license ended up getting suspended. But this is what happened. So the $2 toll increased to about, for each $2 toll, increased after the fines and the fees and the late charges and every [crosstalk 00:13:42]

Heidi Otway: [crosstalk 00:13:42]

Ashley Thomas: Yes. All of those together for those three $2 violations, so $6 in tolls was nearly $1000.

Heidi Otway: Oh my.

Ashley Thomas: In order for her to get her driver's license back.

Heidi Otway: Oh my.

Ashley Thomas: Right. Luckily, she had parents who could bail her out, and pay off what she owed, and then you have to pay a reinstatement fee to get your driver's license back, which is an additional fee on top of the other fees for the late fees, and the actual toll violation itself, and it's just so punitive, and it doesn't make sense that $6 in tolls equals $1000 and a suspended driver's license, and a possible criminal conviction.

Heidi Otway: Right. For a college student who didn't even know this was taking place.

Ashley Thomas: Right. And when she was pulled over, which is when she found out that her license-

Heidi Otway: So, she was pulled over, and that was how she found out?

Ashley Thomas: Mm-hmm (affirmative). She had no idea.

Heidi Otway: Because they ran the plate or something?

Ashley Thomas: Something, and they pulled her over, told her she had a suspended driver's license. Luckily, they let her off with a warning, but not everybody's going to be that lucky.

Heidi Otway: That's true.

Ashley Thomas: There are 600 citations, roughly, each day in Florida, that are issues for driving with a suspended license.

Heidi Otway: Really?

Ashley Thomas: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Roughly 100 in Miami-Dade alone. And that's a lot of people driving around with a suspended license, and who knows how many of them even know.

Heidi Otway: Right. So our listeners, if you're listening this and you're like "Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I travel up and down the state, how do I find out if my license is suspended without getting pulled over?" What could they do.

Ashley Thomas: So I encourage everybody to check. I've checked, because now that I know that this is such a thing [crosstalk 00:15:23]

Heidi Otway: In Florida, yeah.

Ashley Thomas: So you can go to the Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles' website, and you can enter in your driver's license number, and it'll tell you-

Heidi Otway: Oh my god. I would probably be nervous the whole time [inaudible 00:15:35]. Oh wow. That's pretty terrifying.

Ashley Thomas: People just find out. Sometimes when they're pulled over, and sometimes their insurance company is like "Hey. What's going on? We can carry you."

Heidi Otway: So they find out from the insurance company?

Ashley Thomas: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Heidi Otway: What are the reforms? What are you all doing? What steps are you taking to end the practice of suspending driver's licenses and just to be clear for our listeners, we're talking specifically for people who can't afford to pay because I've gotten tickets before, and I've paid quickly because I have a job. I can pay, and I probably didn't buy that blue dress that month, because I had to pay it, right?

Ashley Thomas: Right.

Heidi Otway: But again, we're talking really about people who are unable to pay because they just don't have the means. I'm sure it's a public policy change that needs to be made, and so tell us a little bit about your efforts there.

Ashley Thomas: Yeah, and you know, what's really funny is when I talk to people about this who are like "This is happening? And this is such a huge issue? Why is everybody not talking about this? Why is this still happening?"

So, we're working on some reforms that will, for folks who are struggling with income, who may have some sort of medical situation going on, if you're below the poverty line, or 200% of the poverty line, put them on a payment plan, so that they can comply.

Heidi Otway: Yeah. That makes sense.

‍Ashley Thomas: Right. Draw it out a little bit longer, make the payment reasonable, lower the bar to entry on a payment plan, and every county has such a different process, currently.

Heidi Otway: So all 67 counties are different?

‍Ashley Thomas: Basically, yeah.

Heidi Otway: Really?

Ashley Thomas: And so we'd like to create a uniform process.

Heidi Otway: That makes sense.

Ashley Thomas: Right.

Heidi Otway: It would be easier, I would think.

Ashley Thomas: Easy, straightforward, not overly-complicated, and everybody knows, going into it, what to expect, because there's a uniform form that calculates what your payment would be. Ideally it would give folks the ability to have a bad month and maybe take that payment that they would have made that month, and then put it at the end. If they're just like "I just can't make that payment. I want to make that payment, I just don't have the extra money this month."

A process to take into consideration that people's lives are complicated, and a lot of people have very limited disposable income.

Heidi Otway: Right. It's interesting that you talk about the uniform, because for folks who travel to Tallahassee frequently for work or for whatever, or for football games. They could live in Miami-Dade and get a ticket in Leon county, and if you have a uniform process, then they would pretty much know "This is what I got to do, regardless of where I get the ticket or wherever I have that infraction."

Ashley Thomas: Right. And I think technology is going to eventually help solve this problem a little bit.

Heidi Otway: Yeah. You would think. You're right.

Ashley Thomas: I mean, think about it. Every time you owe your cellphone bill, credit card bill, whatever bill, you get a text message, a letter in the mail, email.

Heidi Otway: So people don't get that now at all?

Ashley Thomas: Not until they've already missed their payment and their license is about to be suspended.

Heidi Otway: Really?

Ashley Thomas: Yeah.

Heidi Otway: So the notices are sent in, what, traditional mail, snail mail?

‍Ashley Thomas: Yeah. To the address that-

Heidi Otway: To the address...

Ashley Thomas: The Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles has on file, which sometimes isn't the most accurate. That's when- sometimes that's when people are like "Oh, crap." Like, "I had forgot about this," or "I had so much on my mind," or whatever.

And here's the thing. I don't know what day my cellphone bill is due, I just know that I'll get a message-

Heidi Otway: You'll get a message on your phone that says "Your bill is due in three days."

Ashley Thomas: I couldn't tell you when any of my bills are due.

Heidi Otway: And most of us are on autopay anyway.

Ashley Thomas: Well, right.

Heidi Otway: We're on autopay, so is it possible that if these reforms happen, it could be an autopay kind of situation potentially?

Ashley Thomas: Potentially, yeah. I think that there's a lot of room for flexibility and making this a user-friendly program that ultimately will serve the purpose of helping people pay their fines or fees, which will make the clerks of court happy, and the state happy, and-

Heidi Otway: Because it brings in revenue.

‍Ashley Thomas: It brings in revenue.

Heidi Otway: It brings in that much needed revenue and increase.

Ashley Thomas: Hold the individual accountable-

Heidi Otway: Hold them accountable for the infraction.

Ashley Thomas: Which is important, obviously. Most importantly, it'll keep that person working, because we won't be suspending their driver's license.

Heidi Otway: Let's talk a little bit about the business impacts of this. You know, Floridians who can't drive because their driver's license is suspended, and the impact that could have on their employers. I mean, if you think about Florida, we're tourism, we have a lot of construction in industry, manufacturing, and a lot of those jobs require a driver's license.

So, I know you all have been talking with different businesses who say "Yes. This makes sense. We need these folks driving." Tell me a little bit about the conversations you've had and the support that you've gathered since you've been in Florida working on this.

Ashley Thomas: Every time we speak with a business entity, an association, or a business themselves, workforce is their primary need. Unemployment is so low. They have jobs available, no one to fill them, and this is something that is number one on employer's minds is how do they fill these empty jobs?

‍Heidi Otway: Right.

Ashley Thomas: So the business community that we've talked to is fully in support of what we're trying to do, because they need workers. There are so many jobs that require driving as a necessary part of the job. If you are a truck driver...

Heidi Otway: Hello. Driving up and down I-10, I-95, I-75.

Ashley Thomas: Of a distributor, any business that has any commerce-

Heidi Otway: We got our ports, the truckers are driving from our ports to the inner motor parks. Yeah.

Ashley Thomas: Oh, yeah.

‍Heidi Otway: And businesses.

Ashley Thomas: If you lose your driver's license on the weekend. On the weekend, let's say your toll violation. You lose your personal driver's license? Your commercial driver's license is also impacted.

Heidi Otway: Goodness.

Ashley Thomas: So then...

Heidi Otway: You can't drive.

Ashley Thomas: You can't drive, and you can't work. You're like "Well, crap." You pay it, but now you have a suspension on your driving record, which makes your insurance company look at you and say "You're a risk," so it impacts your insurance.

Heidi Otway: Right. So you'll get hit on the other side.

Ashley Thomas: Because they don't care why your license was suspended. As far as they know it's because you got a DUI. The reality is it's something minor not related to driving, or not related to being a public safety danger, like a toll violation. It doesn't make you an insurance risk, but the insurance companies don't know that.

Heidi Otway: So let's talk about the difference, for those who are listening and wondering, are we talking about serious offenses, or are we talking about minor offenses. Can you kind of give the distinction on the push that Fines and Fees Justice Center is doing around driver's license suspensions?

Ashley Thomas: There are certainly certain offenses that if you commit them, you're losing your driver's license because you committed that offense.

Heidi Otway: Okay. For example?

Ashley Thomas: The DUI is a perfect example. You're losing your license because you are a public safety danger.

Heidi Otway: Yeah. A public safety. Right.

Ashley Thomas: So, items like that, the offenses for which the driving is the reason why you're losing your driver's license, we're not touching those.

Heidi Otway: Yeah.

Ashley Thomas: I don't want people with DUIs driving on the roads.

Heidi Otway: And I'm sure our listener's don't either.

Ashley Thomas: I don't think any of us really do.

Heidi Otway: No. We don't want that.

Ashley Thomas: We're going to maintain those, obviously. Our issue is penalizing people who have a hard time making ends meet. They're safe drivers. I don't know any of us who haven't gotten some minor speeding ticket. I don't know that that makes you an unsafe driver, you know? And if it did, then you should lose your driver's license for it, right?

Heidi Otway: Right. Right.

Ashley Thomas: But that's not-

Heidi Otway: If you do it over and over and over again.

Ashley Thomas: There's points that accrue. If you are a repeat offender, you're going to be losing your license.

Heidi Otway: You're going to lose your license, and you should.

‍Ashley Thomas: Right. And that's not what we're trying to handle or deal with or change. I am all for safe roadways.

Heidi Otway: Yes.

Ashley Thomas: We did some math and some numbers where we looked at "Okay. What is the percentage of people who are suspended because they're a dangerous driver?" Things like the DUIs, the habitual traffic offenders, points on their license. That's fewer than 5% of the total. Very small amount of suspension notices that go out each year.

Heidi Otway: Really. 5% of those for those habitual...

Ashley Thomas: For things that you would traditionally think of as a dangerous driver.

Heidi Otway: Yeah. Okay. Unsafe.

Ashley Thomas: Public safety concerns. And this also includes people who can't pass the eye test.

Heidi Otway: Oh. Yeah.

Ashley Thomas: Things where you really don't want people driving.

Heidi Otway: Right, right.

Ashley Thomas: That's fewer than 5%. 72%, on the other hand, are for people who have been unable to pay their fines or fees within the 30 days, and then there's 10% or so for child support. Apparently in the state of Florida, if you're a parent and you try to get your kid into a school that you're not zoned for, you can lose your driver's license.

Heidi Otway: Really?

Ashley Thomas: Yes. So that's a chunk.

Heidi Otway: I didn't know that.

Ashley Thomas: I know. Parents everywhere beware.

Heidi Otway: I did not know that.

Ashley Thomas: Yeah. So that's a chunk as well, and then for certain drug convictions you'll lose your driver's license, but the vast majority of the suspensions are for people who are behind on their fines and fees.

Heidi Otway: So you all are working to pass legislation in this upcoming session on that.

Ashley Thomas: Yup. That's the goal.

Heidi Otway: That's the goal.

Ashley Thomas: Get people back to work.

Heidi Otway: Yeah. I think that's real important. I'm sure that there are folks who are listening saying "I did not know this," and hopefully they're going to the website to see if their licenses are still valid.

You were a former public defender before you came to Florida.

Ashley Thomas: Yup.

Heidi Otway: Tell us a little bit about how that has helped you in this current position.

Ashley Thomas: So my first job out of law school was... I went to law school in Vermont, I was applying for jobs all over in Columbia, South Carolina. I applied to be a public defender there and got the job. So, moved to South Carolina, which is where I actually went to undergrad, so I was familiar with the area, and was a public defender for about three and a half years, which was...

Heidi Otway: I'm sure very eye opening in South Carolina.

Ashley Thomas: Very. Oh, yes. As a public defender, obviously, all your clients are indigent.

Heidi Otway: Yeah.

Ashley Thomas: My clientele were very poor. Many of them were homeless, many of them had mental health issues, many of them had other issues their lives were not easy, and being a public defender was something that meant a lot to me.

You think of folks who go through the justice system, and you see these news stories about people, but people are complex. I really learned to appreciate that an individual is not the worst thing that they've ever done.

One of the issues I had as a public defender, and the reason why I eventually left, was the system itself wasn't working. Folks were being processed through the justice system, but I wouldn't say that justice was being served.

Heidi Otway: True.

Ashley Thomas: I, personally, felt uncomfortable being a part of the system, and I love public defenders. They are my heroes. It was a hard thing for me to do. I want to get to the heart of what is creating barriers for people to be able to succeed.

You come into contact with the justice system, you are held accountable for a crime that you've committed, and we like to think "All right. That's the end of it," but it's not. That's sometimes the very beginning, because with a criminal conviction, with the fines and fees that people owe, with the family disruption, people going to prison, being removed from their families, parents being removed from their kids. It creates a lifetime of impact.

‍Heidi Otway: Yeah. It's like a cycle, I'm sure.

Ashley Thomas: It is. It is, and so, I wanted to work on the policy side to otry to slowly chip away at some of these barriers that were keeping people from fulfilling what was obvious they had a lot to offer, but sometimes it's just really hard for folks. Trauma and poverty, it really is an all-encompassing everyday challenge.

Heidi Otway: I'm sure.

Ashley Thomas: I felt like I could do more, going into the policy side.

Heidi Otway: Right. And that's what you're doing right now in your role with the Fines and Fees Justice Center. I find it interesting that when you moved into Florida and took this position. Amendment four.

Ashley Thomas: Right.

Heidi Otway: Amendment four was being pushed and passed and you were in some of the stories about the fines and fees that they have to pay in order to be able to vote. That experience, when you talk about policy and reform and change, meaningful change. Let's talk about that. What was that experience like?

Ashley Thomas: Well, obviously we came into Florida not really expecting to be a part of the amendment four conversation.

Heidi Otway: Right. But it made sense. I mean, you're fines and fees.

Ashley Thomas: Well, right. So, I think we were a natural, like "Oh. What is Fines and Fees Justice Center have to say about this?" And our position, I love FRRC, the Florida Rights Restoration Coalition, and what Neil and Desmond have done.

Heidi Otway: And Desmond, yeah.

Ashley Thomas: And I was lucky as a new Florida voter to be able to vote for amendment four. Where I came from in South Carolina, once somebody finished their sentence, they were able to vote.

Heidi Otway: Oh.

Ashley Thomas: When I was voting for it I was like "Oh, yeah. Of course. This is what we have in South Carolina. It makes sense." And the fines and fees never entered my mind, because that wasn't an issue in South Carolina.

Heidi Otway: Right.

Ashley Thomas: The legislature felt like it needed some clarification, and then the real fines and fees discussion started during last session when "What does it mean to complete a sentence?" And that's when they determined that it included payment of fines and fees and restitution.

So we were called upon to give our thoughts and opinions on that, and, honestly, our opinion was pretty straightforward, and our position is pretty straightforward, which is money shouldn't keep you from being able to vote.

Heidi Otway: So you kind of cut your teeth a little bit on amendment four, and really kind of put the Fines and Fees Justice Center on the map in Florida. Let's take a look ahead. How do you feel about the session coming up? I know that's a [inaudible 00:29:12] question.

We've been working with you on really trying to move the needles and get business and organizations behind it, and they seem to get it. At the end of the day, we got to convince our lawmakers that this is the right thing to do, and we have an umber of senators and representatives who are really pushing for more criminal justice reform in Florida, so, you feeling good?

Ashley Thomas: Yes. I am feeling great.

The funny thing is, so I've been doing policy work and legislative work for seven years in South Carolina, and then I came here. Totally different world.

Heidi Otway: I'm sure.

Ashley Thomas: Like, completely. Florida has its own entity, so I'm learning a lot, I still have a lot to learn.

There are so many people here who care deeply about these issues, and have good ideas. I think everybody has lots of ideas, and sometimes the struggle is to somehow merge all of those great ideas into a cohesive package that makes sense, and so hopefully we can do that.

Heidi Otway: Yeah. Because there's a lot of stakeholders involved.

‍Ashley Thomas: Oh, yeah.

Heidi Otway: I mean, you got the clerks, you have the Highway Safety Motor Vehicles, you have law enforcement, you have business. I mean, just so many... including our policy makers. There's just so much. The courts. They're all involved, and so, you're right. It's a matter of crafting something that everyone can get behind on.

Ashley Thomas: And nobody likes change.

Heidi Otway: This is a big life.

Ashley Thomas: It's going to be a challenge, but I think, ultimately, in the long run, it is the right move.

‍Heidi Otway: You're getting a lot of folks who agree this is the right move, it's just a matter of [crosstalk 00:30:43].

Ashley Thomas: I don't think anybody has said it's not the right move.

Heidi Otway: Exactly.

Ashley Thomas: They're just like "How do we do this?"

Heidi Otway: How do we do this?

Ashley Thomas: And how do we do this in a way that works for all of the different... like you said, there are so many different stakeholders.

Heidi Otway: You all have a really dynamic website. The Fines and Fees Justice Center website, and for our listeners here, I would encourage you to definitely go on the site and look at your clearing house. You all have tons and tons of data about the impacts of fines and fees on different industries, and how it affects all of us. So, I would certainly encourage our listeners to check it out and support this effort, because I think it's the right think to do.

Ashley Thomas: I mean, data's important.

Heidi Otway: Data's important. It's proof.

‍Ashley Thomas: And showing the actual whole impact of these policies, and how they don't work. My approach to this work has always been using the data, and using the facts. I mean, the feelings will get you somewhere, but at the end of the day, the proof is in the numbers.

Heidi Otway: Those data points are person, and so important that there are people out there- I mean, through your website you can find the stories of people who've been impacted. So that data point is not just a number. That's an individual. It's a mom-

Ashley Thomas: It's a dad, it's a brother, it's a sister, the kids.

I can tell you story after story of people who have lost good jobs. One particular individual, who was an iron worker, and you had to drive from job to job. Lost his driver's license because of a criminal fee that he couldn't pay from a silly, as he puts it, a misunderstanding with his neighbor.

Heidi Otway: Yeah.

Ashley Thomas: But it was a minor charge, and it ended up costing him his job as an iron worker, which he was making good money. He was then unable to pay his childd support, so now he's in arrears with his child support. He lost his house because he couldn't make his mortgage payment because he was trying so hard to make all of these other ends meet when he lost his job. And now he's living on his daughter's couch with his wife.

Heidi Otway: Because he couldn't pay his fines and fees.

Ashley Thomas: Yup. [inaudible 00:32:50] his driver's license.

Heidi Otway: Lost his driver's license.

‍Ashley Thomas: It's really about the driver's license. The fines and fees, he would have been able to pay them.

Heidi Otway: Yeah, if he kept his job.

Ashley Thomas: Yup. Actually, he was getting autodrafted, and the autodraft came the day before his paycheck was deposited.

Heidi Otway: Wow. And it bounced.

Ashley Thomas: And it bounced.

Heidi Otway: Wow.

Ashley Thomas: So, he was paying, but, life happens, things happen.

Heidi Otway: Yeah. Well, that's why you're here, and that's why you're all working to change the policies here in Florida.

Well, Ashley, thank you so much for sharing the work that you're doing with the Fines and Fees Justice Center, and the work to really reform some of the criminal justice practices that we have here in Florida. But before we go...

Ashley Thomas: Yes?

Heidi Otway: We want to ask you a couple of questions that we ask every guest on our show.

Ashley Thomas: I can't wait.

Heidi Otway: So the first question is, I know you're new to Florida, but you've been here long enough to get the lay of the land.

Heidi Otway: Who is a Florida leader you admire? It could be someone from any different industry or field, someone from the past, or someone who's working right now in Florida.

Ashley Thomas: There are so many people that I've met that could qualify for this. I'll say the person that stands out most right now is this woman, she's a school teacher in Jacksonville. Her name is Amy, and she started, within her high school, she started gathering kids who were deemed at risk, and they started meeting regularly, and they created sort of a family unit amongst themselves, and these are kids who—I mean, she surveyed them, and there were 15 kids, and like 14 of the 15 had seen a family member die. Some of them had been shot at. Like, these kids had dealt with some rough things. The work that she's done with this group of young men is nothing short of just amazing and astounding.

And people like that, who break out of the day-to-day, and look at somebody, and see like "You have something in you and it needs to come out." And, I don't know, talking to her, I was just in awe the entire time I was talking to her. So, Amy [Donofrio 00:34:53] in Jacksonville, would be who I would say.

Heidi Otway: All right, Amy. Maybe we can get her to be on our Fluent in Floridian podcast.

Ashley Thomas: Yes. Definitely.

Heidi Otway: Okay. What is a person, place or thing in Florida that deserves more attention that it is currently getting.

Ashley Thomas: So one thing I've noticed since being in Florida for a year is that people love to make fun of Florida in the news. We got "Florida Man."

Heidi Otway: "Florida Man." Florida man.

Ashley Thomas: I don't know that I can speak to something in particular, but the good things that are happening here sometimes get pushed aside for the "Florida Man" stories. I wish that there was more attention spent on the things that Florida has to offer, and not just "Florida Man." Although, I do love Florida man.

Heidi Otway: Yeah. I think we all do.

Ashley Thomas: I mean, I love Florida man.

Heidi Otway: [inaudible 00:35:49]. Yeah, yeah. But the good things.

Ashley Thomas: Yeah. Id like to see more attention spent on the good things happening in the world, and that's in general.

Heidi Otway: Like Amy. Like the teacher.

Ashley Thomas: Like Amy! Yes. There's so many amazing people, no so much awesome stuff in this state, and I've been lucky to be able to travel around in this job, and everywhere I go-

Heidi Otway: You've been to Miami, and Tampa, and here in Tallahassee.

Ashley Thomas: Naples last week.

Heidi Otway: Naples, yeah.

Ashley Thomas: Florida is a really unique and awesome, and very bustling. It's bustling.

‍Heidi Otway: Good. So you've been traveling a lot. What is your favorite Florida location to visit?

Ashley Thomas: Well, okay. So, I've two, and they're kind of very close to one another. I'm a big outdoorsy person. I like to garden, I like to ride my bike, I like to do all the things. And there is two things. So, I grew up in the 80s watching this show called "Realm of the Alligator," on National Geographic.

Heidi Otway: Okay.

Ashley Thomas: I know. We were a weird family, but that's how we spent our time. It was about alligators in the Okefenokee Swamp.

Heidi Otway: I love the Okefenokee Swamp.

Ashley Thomas: And I know that's kind of Georgia-Florida.

Heidi Otway: It is Georgia-Florida.

Ashley Thomas: But I'm going to count it as Florida. I love Okefenokee.

Heidi Otway: I do, too. One of my favorite places to go.

Ashley Thomas: Yes. And as a kid, I watched that Realm of Alligator show over and over. We watched it as a family because we were weird.

Heidi Otway: So have you seen the alligators since you've been here?

Ashley Thomas: I have not seen any alligators.

Heidi Otway: What!?

Ashley Thomas: Well, no, no, no. That's not true. I did at Okefenokee.

Heidi Otway: Okay. You saw it at Okefenokee, right.

Ashley Thomas: Alligators in the wild that I've heard about, that you can just look over and they're there?

Heidi Otway: No. Not anymore.

Ashley Thomas: Yeah.

Heidi Otway: Not like we used to. Okay.

Ashley Thomas: I have seen a wild pig on the side of the road.

Heidi Otway: Yeah. [inaudible 00:37:36].

Ashley Thomas: Okay. I don't know what that's all about. And then there's also, I think a what is it called, Timucuan Ecological Preserve, which is also kind of the Jacksonville area, which is got a [inaudible 00:37:50] plantation, and all these other historic, outdoorsy things. I like outdoorsy things.

Heidi Otway: Good. Well, I know when we were talking earlier you said "I'm not a big sports fan," so I'm not going to ask you about your favorite sports team.

Ashley Thomas: Okay.

Heidi Otway: But I am going to ask you, what's the coolest experience you've had since you been in Florida?

Ashley Thomas: Oh, wow.

Heidi Otway: That'll be my last question. The coolest experience you had since you been in Florida.

Ashley Thomas: Oh my goodness. That's a tough one. And it might be the pig. I'm sorry, no.

The coolest experience. Okay. So I am vegan. I've just been vegan for a really long time, and the coolest experience is that everywhere I go in Florida, there's amazing food.

Heidi Otway: Yes. We have great food.

Ashley Thomas: Like everywhere. I am so excited whenever I have to go somewhere new, because I'm like "I'm going to find the delicious food."

Heidi Otway: Yeah. That's the food thing about Florida, because the food in South Florida, Central Florida, North Florida, all different and just the cultures of our food is amazing.

Ashley Thomas: Oh, yeah. It's so good.

Heidi Otway: Good.

Ashley Thomas: I love food.

Heidi Otway: Great.

Ashley Thomas: Yeah.

Heidi Otway: Well, Ashley, thank you for being on the Fluent in Floridian podcast. I would like to say that for the work that you're doing, and the things that you're trying to do to make Florida a better place, you are truly a Floridian.

Ashley Thomas: Well, thank you. Thank you. I will take it.

Heidi Otway: You are a Floridian. You appreciate our state. So thank you again and we appreciate you. Thank you so much.

Ashley Thomas: Thanks so much, Heidi.

Chris Cate: Thanks for listening to the Fluent in Floridian podcast. This show is executive produced April Salter with additional support provided by Heidi Otway, and the team at SalterMitchell PR.

If you need help telling your Florida story, SalterMitchell PR has you covered by offering issues management, crisis communications, social media, advocacy, and media relations assistance. You can learn more about SalterMitchell PR at saltermitchellpr.com.

You can also learn more about the Fluent in Floridian podcast and listen to every episode of the show at fluentinfloridian.com or by searching for the show using your favorite podcast app.

Have a great day.